In part 2 of our Ben Skeen interview series he discusses his refereeing regrets, how he couldn’t go to Durban for a while, refereeing international matches and what he might do to lessen the challenging calls referees need to make.

There is a perception of the referee team. Do you enjoy being involved in that team?

I feel very fortunate. I’ve had 15 Test Matches as TMO and 67 Super Games and one thing you learn is that whilst we are mad about rugby, so are other parts of the world. I’ve been very fortunate to deal with a bunch of wonderful SANZAR referees and at test match level and with international colleagues. Over the years we’ve grown quite close links so it has become even more enjoyable to catch up with old friends and perform at the highest level.

Have you made any decisions that you regret?

It’s funny. There are two clear decisions that I have made, both were quite early on, which resonate. I remember walking out and a couple of hours later seeing footage of both decisions and wracking my brains as to how I saw what I said I saw and came to the decision which I did on both.

One was funny in that it was a game involving the Sharks and I ended up having the sharks the following week again and had a conversation with John Smit [former Springbok and current Sharks CEO] who is a fantastic guy with a great sense of humour.

I spoke with him straight after the second game and he said “I don’t think you should go to Durban for a little wee while” and I laughed a bit. He then looked at me with quite a stern face and said: “No honestly, I don’t think you should come. There are some unhappy people there”.

I could understand how that decision might have led people to be upset but sometimes our eyes play tricks.

Indeed, but most of our referees don’t get judged by the television replays. And what was the second?

I was watching footage of an ITM Cup game with a colleague a couple of hours afterwards and saw an incident of where I had correctly ruled on foul play but I had also determined that it was not only a yellow card but also a penalty try. The more we looked at clip in hindsight I couldn’t see how it was ever going to be a probable try. Live, I somehow managed to convince myself that it was.

Both of those were around 2008 and 2009 and to this day, both events have a role in reminding me that whilst we are looking at very complex circumstances, a simple process and a decisive mind-set is required. Because the more you look at footage, the more you can come to decisions that aren’t relevant or simply aren’t right.

I often look at replays, come to a decision and then second guess. Do you?

It’s a unique environment because you make the decision live and then you are on to your next job as play recommences: foul play, action off the ball and then as we get down field, the likelihood of scoring. What that means is that you can’t sit and dwell on a decision.

Interestingly, I can go through games and come out the other side and there is almost the sense of “I know I made five decisions that night” but immediately off the mark I can’t name what they were. Often it feels that you are working in an isolated vacuum because you aren’t next to someone discussing the game. It’s simply you, a television monitor and communication headset to the referee.

So you can’t have a beer?

Ha. Absolutely not.

Do you look at the game differently depending on the level of the game played?

Absolutely not. The role is specific to reviewing foul play and events two phases prior to a try. Regardless of the skill level, crowd and ‘importance’ of the competition, if you relax for a second there is bound to be a scenario that really gets you to question the boundary of a sanction and so relaxing is not an option.

What would you say is the memorable game you have officiated in an Auckland Referee shirt?

There are several that spring to mind, however for brevity’s sake the one that jumps out immediately would be the Ponsonby vs Otahuhu Gallaher Shield semi-final in 2005. I had just turned 22 years old, having made the NZ Squad for the first time, but would have been the first to say I was massively lacking in experience.

Although I had my first coach, Roger Drew, who I attribute my foundation as a referee to, running on one of the touchlines for me, I must admit there was a sense of being completely overwhelmed all week in the lead up to the match. Then from the kick off, Ponsonby came out and executed with such accuracy that the game was all but over by 20 minutes and I got to sit back and watch one side (Otahuhu) throw everything at it, whilst Ponsonby lifted even: creating a thrilling fixture, albeit not a close one.

Other sports have televised TMOs, is that something you’ve experienced. What are your thoughts on that?

Currently at Super Rugby and above the match broadcaster has a put-in to our feed and can turn up a ref mic at any time they would like to. When they decide not to, that info is still available to the commentators. It’s a very public communication cycle – and so it should be because there are critical decisions being made that people out in TV-land, or listening at the game, need to be aware of and what has led to those decisions.

What I haven’t had is a camera on me in the TMO box which does happen in some of the games in the Northern Hemisphere. If that were to happen, I would have no issue with that at all.

There have been plenty of occasions where a game has come down to a refereeing decision, usually resulting in a kick from the half way line, and whilst a technical infringement it does significantly change the game and arguably wouldn’t have had a material impact otherwise. If you were looking at ways to improve the play of the game, what would you suggest?

You have to look at the breakdown, there are a large number of complexities around the tackle.

A lot of that comes about from the role of the tackler and the speed at which the tackle is now made and how the tackler gets to his feet. That creates very difficult decision making for the referee and congestion around the area at that phase. So my first attention would be about how to deal with that tackler to tidy up the breakdown.

People have mooted that the tackler shouldn’t be given any rights at that phase and I think there could be some positives to come out of the game if that were the case. Can you imagine a game where the tackler has no rights and must immediately roll away?

Edit: We discuss this for some time, forgetting what we are doing. This is a topic that could go on forever.

You are often involved in Super Rugby matches as TMO involving two ‘home sides’, what happens when you get a call from a mate asking about some decision or another that was made during a game?

You go along to a game as referee or TMO to do a job and you forget about the emotion it brings to fans. So this does bring about some very interesting conversations because they have looked through a certain lens.

Now before you got more involved as a TMO, you’d refereed international Rugby World Cup qualifiers what was that like?

First it was a privilege to be appointed to both of those test match fixtures. It feels like a very long time ago now, in 2008 and 2009. At that stage I was still climbing through the ranks as an on-field referee. Both test matches featured developing nations and with respect to their performances, the quality of football would have been on par with premier club rugby here in Auckland.

So it was more the experience of the first overseas match and working in an environment very different to ITM Cup or club rugby.

Our series continues tomorrow, when Ben continues his conversation with interviewer, David Nolan.